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News, Politics, and General / Re: Reply to Bonnie B., about honor
« Last post by forbitals on July 17, 2019, 04:44:01 pm »
"Actually, as a member of the LGBTQ community, I can assure you that yes, we do advocate sexual diversity."

Can you show any links to the LBGTQ community making these calls for sexual diversity?  Can anyone supply such links?

I am going to look into the matter.  I hope that the LQBTQ community advances itself with more than calls for diversity.

Most invoke the Stonewall Rebellion as the example to follow.

And then there had been harassment and threats against this Camp Sister Spirit in Mississippi.  I never remember any calls for sexual orientation diversity.  They treated the whole matter as one of threats of lethality.

Now, as I was just thinking this morning, it turns out that a few months ago I had met a man who had been on the Board of Directors of a prominent local LQBTQ group.

But this acquaintance of mine is a strong believer in ~mental illness~ and in ~psychotherapy~  He believes that he has ~mental illness~.  He treats this with Crystal Meth, and he believes that ~psychotherapy~ and ~recovery~ are absolute necessities.

And the group he was a Board Member, as I know it does a lot of ~counseling~ for members of the LGBTQ Community who seem to be having difficulties.

My last words to this man were, "You are denigrating survivors with your talk about psychotherapy and recovery."  He denies this, but I finally just walked away from him.

I think now that what I was seeing was this, decades ago the Middle-Class Family would likely of condemned homosexuality, seeing it as a violation of the Self-Reliance Ethic.

Now, things have changed, and often the Middle-Class Family will not condemn homosexuality, so long as there is compliance with the Self-Reliance Ethic.

And so my acquaintance is like that, an enforcer of the Self-Reliance Ethic, via psychotherapy and recovery, but also an outspoken LGBTQ supporter.

And we know that the LGBTQ movement has always had both types.  Some insist on public transexuality and public displays of affection, because they insist on the same right which heterosexuals have.  While others try to come across as inoffensive and especially to be seen as employable, thinking here of things like the Mattachine Society.  But what this latter is doing is aligning itself with the ideologies of the Middle-Class Family.

Remember at the start of Bill Clinton's Presidency there was debate about gays in the military, and Clinton just wanted to flat out lift the ban.  So there was testimony before the Senate.  One woman in a white military uniform was talking about her own experience and her history of service.  Strom Thurmond from South Carolina asked her, "Have you talked to a doctor about getting help for your problem?"

If the LGBTQ community makes calls for "sexual orientation diversity", then I say that they are relinquishing their dignity and they are always going to have to be dealing with people who say that doctors and therapists can help them with their problems.  And so they had better be ready for the interment camps.

"besides that you are not understanding neurodiversity theoeists here, and your are very definately not hearing what I am saying"

Well as it stands I had just recently posted a great deal about this idea of ~neurodiversity~.

Here, 5 posts.

And then here it is, after calling for ~neurodiversity~ we finally have the promise of a cure, at least a treatment, the Transcranial Magnet, to make currents flow in the axons of the nerve cells inside the brain!

Bonnie wrote,

"I think PacificDawn, that you have really misunderstood what neurodiversity theorists are doing. They are not pleading for anything. They are directly countering a pathology paradigm with a neurodiversity paradigm."

This Steve Silberman, a proponent of neurodiversity, and one who finds a hero in Hans Asperger.  Asperger signed to send thousands of children to be euthanized.  If he had not been able to hide his association with the Nazi's, then Apserger would probably have been executed.

I read your discussion of this Nick Walker.


Why would anyone accept any kind of a label if they were not being conned and bullied?

Most of the time children are not really well positioned to take an absolute stand against their parents, and not when the parents are backed up by white coats, and not when the child is being placed in situations which are not safe.

Bonnie did you have a lapel tag in mind, for radical neurodiversity, not for pathology of course?

You say there are many ways to resist.    Do you consider capitulating to bullies to be a way of resisting?

Would you say that Neville Chamberlain was resisting at Munich?

Why would anyone accept any kind of a stigmatizing label unless they were being placed under duress and conned?

Bonnie, fortunately not everyone responds to oppression in the ways that you suggest.

Part3, the Yellow Star
News, Politics, and General / Reply to Bonnie B., about honor
« Last post by forbitals on July 16, 2019, 04:37:50 pm »
Bonnie,  A big reason that slavery ended in the United States was that free blacks were highly offended by Harriet Beecher Stowe and her protagonist.  Within one year they were speaking before the Massachusetts State Legislature, demanding to be able to serve in the militia.  And their justification was that they did not want to have to be like Beecher Stowe's protagonist.  Then when the legislature still denied them, they bought their own uniforms and formed their own militia.  Eventually 180,000 black men would train with rifles and bayonets and would serve in federal uniform.  When Frederick Douglas praised them, he contrasted them with Beecher Stowe's protagonist.  Without this service, they probably would have been returned to a state of slavery.

Beecher Stowe had not intended her protagonist to be offensive.  She painted him as a paragon of Christian virtue, tortured to death, but still not betraying the escapees.  But offensive he still was.  She had wanted Whites to accept him as non-threatening, as already subjugated.

In Nazi Occupied France, resistance emerged, Catholics, Nationalists, and Marxists from the Spanish Civil War.  They killed both Germans and French Collaborators.  When they killed Germans, other Germans took those places.  When they killed French, no other French took those places.  It is only because of such resistance that France was purged of such collaborators and treated as one of the four allied powers of Europe.

And then in the Warsaw Ghetto, Jews saw that it was better to die with honor than without, and so they rose up in the face of near certain death.  This act and others like it today give Jews something to remember and to look up to.

Bonnie, you do not seem to understand the nature of honor.  If people let bullies pin a completely bogus label to their lapel, or let psychotherapists talk them out so that they can easily manipulate them, then they are surrendering their honor.

Usually the primary bullies are the parents, doctors, and school teachers.  Other children are secondary.

And though it is right that LQBTQ members condemn abuses, just calling for diversity is not the same as taking any and all steps necessary to secure social and civil standing, and honor.  I know of LQBTQ members who have devoted themselves to protecting children from religions abuse, and from familial abuses.  Calling for diversity is not at all the same as directly standing up for ones own personhood and that of comrades.

Diversity is an idea like tolerance, that rather than enforcing absolute standards, that one should look the other way and understand that not everyone can measure up to those standards.  So the standards still remain in place, its just that they are not always enforced.  So no, I do not go along at all with what you are saying.

The ~mental health~, ~recovery~, and ~neurodiversity~ movements exist to label and marginalize, because that exonerates any and all abusers, and it leaves us with a society where everyone is always worried about their own compliance with normative standards.
News, Politics, and General / Reply to Robert Nikkel
« Last post by forbitals on July 12, 2019, 04:56:24 pm »
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More Snake Oil, and always targeting survivors!

As people are starting to see the wrongness in the Biomedical Model, now we are being fed the Moral Superiority – FYOG model.

More people confessing to their Psychotherapists, and these people are never actually comrades. Their loyalty is to their sham profession and to its theories.

More people being made to believe fantasy concoctions about their own lives, minimizing the injustices they face in the present, pushing it off to the past where it is out of legal reach. Made to believe that the problem is with their very own life affirming aggressions.

More people so convinced that their own life affirmation is the problem, so that they are left with nothing to live for, except maybe for when they might be granted permission to die.

Deleuze and Guattari say that there is in fact only one mental illness, neuroticism. It is incurable, and it is fatal. And it is caused by Psychoanalysis and Psychotherapy.

Fortunately now in the US we have lawyers who are starting to sue, “Transference Abuse”.

The more lawsuits we can file against psychotherapists the better. And the more of them we can put completely out of business the better. We should not let any of them ever have access to children without court supervision. And we should not be allowing our government to license them, as that only makes it worse.
The Liberal Catholic Church : an analysis of a hybrid sect / Warren Christopher Platt. 1982

Made by photocopying from the microfilming of a Columbia Univ. Doctoral Dissertation.

Okay, so this is even more interesting than I had expected.  Platt is an Episcopalian Priest.  In 1982 he was completing a doctorate in Religion, at Columbia University.  He decided to study this LCC.  He did a very good job.  Shows his questionnaires

LCC does not ordain women!  Hard to imagine that, especially with the huge role which Annie Bessant played in getting it going.

They ask in questionnaire if members had involvement in

Christian Science,
Divine Science,
Religious Science,
Unity School of Christianity,
Swedenborgian Church

The first four we have locally, and they and their people go right up my spine.  Cannot stand them.  Taken in more recent times to just telling them off if they try to speak to me.

Of the fifth, there is one in San Francisco.  Did not know that it was really a church.  Want to learn more about it.

And Swedenborg did keep mistresses.

Now, of the book, at this time I want to record some of its references.  But not sure how easy it would be to obtain many of these, except maybe for going to Ojai CA.

John Wilson, Religion in American Society:  The Effective Presence, 1978

Peter F. Anson, Bishops At Large, 1964

C. C. Martindale, Theosophy, 1913

Eric S. Taylor, The Liberal Catholic Church: What Is It?, 1966

James Ingall Wedgwood, founding Bishop of LCC.

Along with Leadbeater, Bishop Piggot was another funding Bishop.

Parry and RIvett, An Introduction to the Liberal Catholic Church.

Irving S. Cooper, Theosophy Simplified, 1979

--- Ceremonies of the Liberal Catholic Rite., 1964

Geoffrey Hodson, another leading Bishop and Theosophist

Frank Waters Piggot, another leader

Charles C. Wicks, The Liberal Catholic Church and Some Facets of Its Doctrine, 1977

Leadbeater, The Science of the Sacraments  ( the reason they don't ordain women )

Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Theospohy: A Modern Revival of Ancietn Wisdom, 1930

Jinarajadasa, C., The Law of Christ, 1947

Sheehan, Teaching and Worship of the Liberal Catholic Church.
Rohr is 75 years old, he had survived cancer by age 50.  And he has written lots of books.  He draws attention to these:

Naked Now

Just This

Divine Dance

Immortal Diamond

Also N. T. Wright book about Paul

Bruno Barnhart
Second Simplicity, the inner shape of Christianity, Paulist Press 1999

Walter Wink, The Human Being, Jesus and the Enigma of the Son of Man
News, Politics, and General / Re: Reply about the new manual
« Last post by forbitals on July 08, 2019, 04:09:11 pm »
Promoting a Moral Improvement - FYOG model, over the Biomedical model is just a way of continuing to target survivors for more abuse.

Survivors need to learn to fight back in the here and now, and accept none of these models of defect, and sto settle for nothing other than penalties for perpetrators, and reparations for survivors.

The PTMF is just the latest in an ongoing campaign to press survivors into life without public honor.  And we have already seen so many cases where this results in suicide.

We must organize survivors into teams who will fight back.
News, Politics, and General / EffectMatrix
« Last post by forbitals on July 06, 2019, 06:28:55 pm »
News, Politics, and General / Re: Replying to the Tune Out Crowd
« Last post by forbitals on July 06, 2019, 04:01:13 pm »
Further Reply to Sera

Sera, above you wrote, "The main point of the article was that “pill shaming” isn’t really a thing, for the most part… that it’s often about something else in the little ways it does happen, and that mostly the term is a misunderstanding of or misuse of power because the very few people who actually criticize people for taking psych drugs still don’t actually hold any power over them, and the argument that “pill shaming” is this real and frightening thing that is somehow equal to the force and coercion out there that makes people think they have to *take* drugs is just off base."

Throughout your article and replies, you've talked about power.  I agree with you that we should be looking first and foremost at how power is being used.

My thinking about this is in part based on the work of David Smail ( website down now ).  He explained that we have to look at how power is being used, and that the experience of distress is something evolutionarily developed, to draw our attention to conditions which are making us socially marginalized.

And then in part my views have been influenced by Alice Miller, especially her book number 3, "Thou Shalt Not Be Aware".  When she wrote this she was at her very best, denouncing any and all forms of Psychtherapy, showing how they are simply interpretive schema's for promoting denial.

Now unfortunately she was not able to hold to this.  Not unlike R. D. Laing before her, she got wound into regression therapies and was never the same after.  She often had opened doors, but was then unable to walk through them herself.

Psychotherapy is based on getting people to believe the lie that their pain is cased primarily by things which happened long long ago, and that they should ignore the things which socially marginalize them today.  And then most of all, the therapist needs to make you believe that it is morally superior to never make any attempts to restore your public honor.  You are to live without honor.  And to teach this is why our state licenses them.

So in light of this, how could it make much difference if people take pills or drink alcohol?  It doesn't really, they are just getting by as best they can.

Well, part of the problem is that many still argue, even on this forum, that drugs and alcohol are good for people, that they help with this "healing", and that they "expand consciousness".

If we are going to fight back, we need people who are straight, I would say straight like Air Traffic Controllers.  I would say that, but it goes even further.  Even if someone has no mood alterants in their blood stream, but they still occasionally take them, then they are not really committed to feeling their pain.  They believe in escape, and so their abilities will be limited.

Let me tell you this, I helped to get a man a long term in our state prison for molesting his daughters.  And his entire Pentecostal Church was standing behind him and making it into an anti-government case.  And his defense was based on ~mental health~ ~anti-feminism~ and ~anti-government~ arguments and sentiments in the jury pool.

When he was finally convicted and remanded, and then moved from the county jail to the state penn, the elation I felt was extreme.

I would never want to replace even one instance of that with a lifetime of something done by chemicals.  Chemicals do not change anything in your objective life, just like psychotherapy does not change anything in our objective lives.

What we need are anti-mental health guerrillas, people committed to feeling their feelings and to getting results.  So it's not just being drug and alcohol free while carrying out duties, it's a life style based on total commitment to staying drug and alcohol free, which will give us the kind of determined people we need.

To Live With Honor and to Die With Honor
News, Politics, and General / Re: Reply about the new manual
« Last post by forbitals on July 06, 2019, 03:23:04 pm »
Lucy Johnstone, why do you think anyone would go along with this, let you open your new manual and label them? You are preying on survivors, because no one who has not already been severely abused would submit to you.

All you are doing is replacing the Biomedical model with a Moral Superiority – Self Improvement Model.

You’re trying to make people surrender any and all efforts a restoring their public honor.

The state licenses people like you, because you get people to submit, and to stop fighting back.

So as I am understanding the later writings of Foucault, the state used to have to use the threat of execution to control people.

But now, not necessary. And then think about the people who have gone with psychotherapy, recovery, and salvation religion. They are completely passive. No need to brandish the threat of execution with them. They can be controlled very easily simply by withholding from them the permission to die.

And as long as there are financial and status incentives, we will continue trying to replace the Biomedical model with the Morally Superior and Self-Improvement model.

Our state licenses Psychotherapists and Recovery Programs to keep survivors from ever trying to fight back.
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